DebateScoop.org: Live Blog

Live Blog - Allen vs. Webb

By Tim ODonnell 10/09/2006 09:44:33 AM EST

Update [2006-10-9 21:10:46 by Tim ODonnell]:: The debate is over, but you can dig into the threads and post your comments on the candidates answers

Join us for live blogging on the Allen-Webb debate and at 9:00 pm EST for Burns-Tester.

They are both LIVE on C-SPAN tonight! ...with analysis from DebateScoop experts to follow...

A special welcome to RedState and Daily Kos readers who have accepted the debate challenge!

Comment away below the fold.

Finally, here's a shout out to some of the better VA politics blogs that are following this race and tonight's debate:

Raising Kaine (has an open thread on tonight's debate) , Richmond War Room (has free coaching advice) , Virginia Political Blogs , The Virginia Progressive , Commonwealth Conservative , Policy Soup , The A-Team , SWAC Girl , the Virginian Federalist , SLANTblog , AllenHQ , The Mason Conservative

Tags: VA-Sen, Jim Webb, George Allen, live blogging

< High Expectations for the "Invigorating Debate" | Live Blog - Burns vs. Tester >

Live Blog - Allen vs. Webb | 95 comments (95 topical, 0 hidden)

Welcome (none / 0)

Welcome to the live blog. We'll be following the debate and posting larger threads related to the major points in the debate. Write in your comments to these main points by replying. To start a new thread, post a comment.

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 07:53:13 PM EST

Debate Format (none / 0)

After introducing the candidates, Russ Mitchell described the format as such:

Both candidates have 2 minute opening statements. Alternating questions. 1:15 to respond. 45 seconds for rebuttal.

Panelists ask questions.

Each candidate gets to ask the other questions.

Closing statements.

Bell means "overtime" - "must stop immediately."

Audience asked to check emotions.

Order by coin flip - Allen first.

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 07:57:01 PM EST

: Debate Format (none / 0)

Why sponsors assume that having candidates ask question of each other will enlighten anyone is beyond me. If the point is to stage good theatre, then let the candidates ask question. Inevitably they reassert charges from their exaggerated ads, and engage in petty posturing.
Even as I type there was an interesting move. Webb asks Allen about some islands it appeared he did not know about. Partisans likely said yeah, it proves Allen is uninformed, or Webb is cleverer. Perhaps. As likely it is one more trick having candidates ask each other questions encourages.

Allan Louden, Wake Forest University

Winston-Salem, NC
by Allan Louden on 10/09/2006 08:43:50 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Allen Opening Statement (none / 1)

Post comments on Allen's opening statement here!

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 07:57:36 PM EST

: specific accusations plus philosophy (none / 0)

what taxes will be cut and a free market philosophy.
Be the debater you want to see.
by Ross Smith on 10/10/2006 12:21:28 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Webb Opening Statement (none / 1)

Post comments on Webb's opening statement here.

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 07:59:17 PM EST

: You need to have your opening sentences memorized (none / 0)

Uh, Uh, is not a good start.
Seems choppy, stiff. But sincere and striaghtforward. Middle class.
Be the debater you want to see.
by Ross Smith on 10/10/2006 12:23:41 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Q to Allen: Should we stay the course... (none / 0)

and are we winning the war in Iraq?

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:01:52 PM EST

: Allen on the war (none / 0)

Pre-empts the Warner agrees with Webb arg that's been floating around since last week.
Adrienne F. Brovero Debate Coach University of Mary Washington
by Adri on 10/09/2006 08:03:21 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Opening statements - summary (none / 0)

Allen is pleased to be here to discuss "issues that matter to our future"

Parole
Reformed welfare
High achievement
Cut taxes
Jobs
Worked with Warner
Decrease oil dependence
Strengthen economy

Cutting taxes, keeping spending low, help VA economy

Webb doesn't stand with Warner & me - stands with Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, and other Democrats...mentions 9-11.

Reimpose marriage penalty, death tax, slash child tax credit in half

Take over $2000 from avg. VA family.

Webb:
Grateful to be here tonight. What Senator Allen said about taxes isn't true, but we'll get into that.

Different times for America, for different people. How you are doing depends on where you are sitting.

2/3 think we're going in the wrong direction.

War on terror, very few invest their own loved ones in this effort.

47 million Americans w/o health insurance

Costs going up, 36% out of our own pockets.

Need leaders who can measure health of our society by what's good for our working men and women, not just the top 1%

Adrienne F. Brovero Debate Coach University of Mary Washington

by Adri on 10/09/2006 08:02:06 PM EST

Webb reponse to Iraq question (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:03:01 PM EST

Iraq (none / 0)

Gotta love trotting out the audience member as token for your argument. Ronald Reagan started that?

Interesting that he Allen associates himself with James Baker, who has a plan (that he won't reveal until after the election) to change course, a plan that represents George W's Dad's attempt to push back against the neocons.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 10/09/2006 08:04:17 PM EST

Q to Allen: How do you define victory in Iraq? (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:04:18 PM EST

Q to Webb: What would you do about Iraq? (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:05:02 PM EST

Allen response to Iraq Q to Webb (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:06:25 PM EST

Q to Webb: How do you define victory in Iraq? (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:07:20 PM EST

Allen uses the strawman fallacy (none / 0)

Retreating, surrendering . . . nice characterization of an undefined opponent's argument.

We're not occupiers, we're liberators. Webb should have pounced and saud that the liberation happened in 2003.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 10/09/2006 08:08:22 PM EST

Q to Allen: Why should Virginian's believe... (none / 0)

...you aren't a racist?

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:08:37 PM EST

: Baseless allegation? (none / 0)

Not baseless. And he is called out in the followup and lies again.
Be the debater you want to see.
by Ross Smith on 10/09/2006 08:11:25 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Webb's response to race question to Allen (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:09:54 PM EST

F-up Q to Allen: Were they lying? (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:10:47 PM EST

Won't call them liars (none / 0)

Allen says - I don't recall using that word. Stories are portraying it as if that word were part of my vocabulary.

Still no denial. Then (presumably referring to deer head allegation) characterizes the allegations again as baseless. Then lists other groups who have endorsed him.

Adrienne F. Brovero Debate Coach University of Mary Washington

by Adri on 10/09/2006 08:13:00 PM EST

[ Parent ]

: stories that portrayed (none / 0)

him using it regularly, in poker games, are documented in Charlottescville paper, linked in preview thread on this blog.
Be the debater you want to see.
by Ross Smith on 10/09/2006 08:17:12 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Q to Webb: Why should VA women believe you... (none / 0)

...were born fighting for them?

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:11:48 PM EST

Allen response to women in combat question (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:13:01 PM EST

F-up Q to Webb: What do you think of WinCombat? (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:13:51 PM EST

: Stepping on each other's remarks (none / 0)

No real fireworks, but need to play nicer to score points when discussing the issue here -- unless you've followed it extremely closely (the distinctions in the VMI positions), this was a waste of time to the average person looking for a clear answer here.
Adrienne F. Brovero Debate Coach University of Mary Washington
by Adri on 10/09/2006 08:16:40 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Webb not aggressive on "N-word" issue (none / 0)

Webb needed to make the "n-word" issue one of character for Allen - not in terms of 30 years ago, but whether he is lying now. There are so many of Allen's former friends who recall him using that word it is just impossible to believe he doesn't really remember it.

Combine that with Allen saying that he had never heard the word "macaca" prior to using it a few months ago, and the real issue is Allen's current credibility.

Steve Mancuso

by SPMinOHIO on 10/09/2006 08:14:33 PM EST

Q to Allen: Secrecy - How will you solve? (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:15:54 PM EST

: Lulu of a question (none / 0)

A question about members of the media not being able to find enough out about government...sheesh, not exactly a burning question.
Allen's answer was vanilla, he did a good job of re-directing it to issues of government pork.
Webb "shared that concern". Really weak.
Steve Mancuso
by SPMinOHIO on 10/09/2006 08:17:48 PM EST

[ Parent ]
: One party system to blame (none / 0)

Webb makes a good move here to connect government secrecy to anti-incumbency, anti-GOP sentiment.
Adrienne F. Brovero Debate Coach University of Mary Washington
by Adri on 10/09/2006 08:18:39 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Webb response to secrecy question (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:16:54 PM EST

Q to Webb: Civil union ban referendum (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:17:59 PM EST

Allen response to civil union ban referendum (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:19:25 PM EST

: Allen links gay marriage to bad manners (none / 0)

Allen says manners and work ethic are learned in the family, therefore he supports a ban on gay marriage.
Adrienne F. Brovero Debate Coach University of Mary Washington
by Adri on 10/09/2006 08:22:35 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Q to Webb: Tax dollars for illegal immigrants? (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:19:54 PM EST

Webb response to tax dollars for illegal immig? (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:20:25 PM EST

Another red meat answer by Allen (none / 0)

First gay-marriage, now immigration. Allen gets a great chance to play to his conservative base.

Webb's response was confusing.

Steve Mancuso

by SPMinOHIO on 10/09/2006 08:21:54 PM EST

Q to Webb: Are we financially secure when... (none / 0)

...other nations fund our debt?

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:22:26 PM EST

Allen response to debt question (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:23:31 PM EST

: Resurrecting the federal BBA issue? (none / 0)

Allen, in calling for the Taxpayers' Bill of Rights called for a constitutional amendment to balance the budget. Haven't heard that mentioned in a long time.
Adrienne F. Brovero Debate Coach University of Mary Washington
by Adri on 10/09/2006 08:25:14 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Webb not attacking Allen enough (none / 0)

This debate should be about George Allen's record and character. Webb is allowing it to become about "positions I've taken 19 years ago" or "20 years ago" etc. He needs to be taking this debate much more directly at Allen.

Webb blows a chance to attack Republican deficit spending. Example: "Allen says one thing but acts differently in Washington."

Steve Mancuso

by SPMinOHIO on 10/09/2006 08:24:20 PM EST

: Webb does it on energy! n/t (none / 0)

Be the debater you want to see.
by Ross Smith on 10/09/2006 08:26:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Q to Allen: Oil dependency (none / 0)

Can't something be done to step up production of alternative fuels?

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:24:27 PM EST

Webb response to oil dependency question (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:24:50 PM EST

Local references... (none / 0)

really help Allen. He's been accused of losing touch with Virginia. His specific references - example, VA counties using bio-fuels, specific farmers, mothers of iraq soldiers.

Steve Mancuso

by SPMinOHIO on 10/09/2006 08:26:05 PM EST

Q to Webb: Affirmative action (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:26:22 PM EST

Allen response to affirmative action question (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:27:15 PM EST

"...as convoluted as it was..." (none / 0)

Good toss-off line by Allen. Webb's answer on affirmative action was pretty confusing.

Two more VA references for Allen - Virginia Indians, clean coal.

Steve Mancuso

by SPMinOHIO on 10/09/2006 08:28:29 PM EST

Allen Q to Webb #1: Spending and tax cuts (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:29:23 PM EST

: Timing is everything (none / 0)

Didn't really ask a question, and didn't really get the full impact of the "bankrolled by Hillary" claim in before they were jumping on him about time.
Adrienne F. Brovero Debate Coach University of Mary Washington
by Adri on 10/09/2006 08:31:01 PM EST

[ Parent ]
: never got to the question (none / 0)

until the followup.
What is the number of people who benefitted?
Answered with a question (an old c-x trick).
Be the debater you want to see.
by Ross Smith on 10/09/2006 08:31:22 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Question choices count (none / 0)

as much as anything, inlcuding the answers to the questions.

The candidates get to set agendas.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 10/09/2006 08:29:57 PM EST

Webb response to taxes and spending question (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:30:00 PM EST

Allen response to Webb Answer on taxes (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:30:44 PM EST

: How many Virginians...? (none / 0)

...are effected by the tax relief? (Is that the question?)
by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:31:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Allen looks terrible asking question. (none / 0)

Allen never got around to asking one. That makes him look pretty inept.

Webb should have taken the opportunity to answer Allen's charge in his opening that he would raise taxes.

Steve Mancuso

by SPMinOHIO on 10/09/2006 08:31:26 PM EST

Stupid format (none / 0)

Steve Mancuso

by SPMinOHIO on 10/09/2006 08:31:58 PM EST

Webb Q to Allen #1: Minimum wage (none / 0)

Same question as first debate!

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:32:09 PM EST

: Minimum wage bill linked to tax cut (none / 0)

Not quite a fair characterization of the "vote" he cast for the minimum wage this summer. Would never pass because linked to tax cut, forcing Dems to vote against it.
Adrienne F. Brovero Debate Coach University of Mary Washington
by Adri on 10/09/2006 08:34:47 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Allen response to Webb Q on minimum wage (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:32:26 PM EST

Minimum wage question is weak -- (none / 0)

Allows a deceptive answer. I voted for it. Yea, in the context of a poison pill that prevented the Democrats from woting for it.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 10/09/2006 08:33:34 PM EST

Webb response to Allen answer on minimum wage (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:34:04 PM EST

Terrible question by Webb (none / 0)

How could he not have anticipated that Allen could take credit for all the GOP-based minimum wage votes that are tied to business tax cuts. "also want to provide relief to small business"

Why not just ask why Allen took the pay raise when government has been so ineffective since he's been in the Senate?

Allen is hammering Webb on the issue of taxes, and tying Webb to Senator Clinton. Webb has no real response to this.

Steve Mancuso

by SPMinOHIO on 10/09/2006 08:34:07 PM EST

Allen's Character... (none / 0)

Why isn't Webb connecting Allen's truthfulness on campaign accusations to his veracity on "macaca" and the "n-word."?

Webb - weak follow through - "well, we'll get the statistics out to the people."

Steve Mancuso

by SPMinOHIO on 10/09/2006 08:35:48 PM EST

: And what about ... (none / 0)

the financial disclosure issue that hit the news in the last 24 hours?
Why didn't the moderator or panel bring this up?
Adrienne F. Brovero Debate Coach University of Mary Washington
by Adri on 10/09/2006 08:37:09 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Allen Q to Webb #2: Intel and detainees (none / 0)

Do you support NSA surveillance?
Habeas Corpus for detainees?

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:35:56 PM EST

Webb response to Allen Q on intel/detainees (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:36:40 PM EST

Allen response to Webb answer on intel/detainees (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:37:23 PM EST

Stand up for Habeus, damnit (none / 0)

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 10/09/2006 08:37:41 PM EST

Allen strawing again (none / 0)

Characterizing those in support of habeas corpus rights as supporting "high speed internet access and dvds", as if they were calling for providing detainees with porn, IMs, and Netflixs.

Adrienne F. Brovero Debate Coach University of Mary Washington

by Adri on 10/09/2006 08:40:27 PM EST

[ Parent ]

deny the strawman (none / 0)

"clogging the courts"???

DVDs??

Habeus, the Great Writ, is what our founders fought for, court clog be damned.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 10/09/2006 08:40:29 PM EST

[ Parent ]

: "frivolous lawsuits" ???????????? (none / 0)

Habeus petitions were just called frivolous by Allen.
Be the debater you want to see.
by Ross Smith on 10/09/2006 08:47:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Webb response to Allen response on intel/detainees (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:38:10 PM EST

Webb Q to Allen #2: Islands... what do you think? (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:38:51 PM EST

Allen response to Webb question on Islands (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:39:17 PM EST

Webb response to Allen? Passes. (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:40:11 PM EST

Who passes in a debate? (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:40:26 PM EST

[ Parent ]

: A low point for Webb (none / 0)

Why not follow up with - see, you'd never heard of that island...how can you be responsible for our national security if you don't know basic geographical issues.
Steve Mancuso
by SPMinOHIO on 10/09/2006 08:42:31 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Did Webb practice for this debate? (none / 0)

It appears that Webb didn't prepare a single short clear answer for any issue in this debate.

Now Webb decides to ask about an obscure island. Allen didn't know it. Webb cleared it up. Allen answers. Then Webb declines his follow up time. Terrible.

Steve Mancuso

by SPMinOHIO on 10/09/2006 08:40:18 PM EST

: Island question was payback (none / 0)

The island question was payback for a question Allen asked Webb during the first debate about the proper use of Craney Island, which seemed to be an attempt to expose Webb as a political novice.
However, this effort seemed too staged, and again, unless you've followed this super-close, impertinent.
And the pass made it look more so.
Adrienne F. Brovero Debate Coach University of Mary Washington
by Adri on 10/09/2006 08:44:07 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Q to Allen: Why did you slide in the polls? (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:40:48 PM EST

One last chance -- what happned to Allen? (none / 0)

Character came into question. Say it, Jim.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 10/09/2006 08:41:44 PM EST

Webb response to Allen Q on poll slide (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:41:45 PM EST

Q to Webb: Should Hastert resign? (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:42:27 PM EST

: Worst Webb Yet (none / 0)

Not asking for Hastert to resign?????? 52% of Americans say yes. What is the down side for a Democrat saying that????????
Allen denounces the behavior, Webb didn't even get it together to say that.
Webb says he hasn't really been paying attention to it? Unbelievable.
Allen much better on the issue.
Steve Mancuso
by SPMinOHIO on 10/09/2006 08:44:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Allen response to Hastert question (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:42:49 PM EST

: Nice twist on pension (none / 0)

Foley should get no pension. I'm for that, too.
Steve Mancuso
by SPMinOHIO on 10/09/2006 08:45:03 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Allen closing statement (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:44:14 PM EST

: Back to taxes (none / 0)

Webb will raise taxes on 3 million people in VA. Webb and his liberal friends.
Really good summary by Allen, hitting all the issues briefly.
Allen "an independent Senator"? Whoa.
Another tie to Hillary Clinton.
Steve Mancuso
by SPMinOHIO on 10/09/2006 08:46:37 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Webb closing statement (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 10/09/2006 08:44:47 PM EST

: 97% support - finally (none / 0)

Finally Webb attacks Allen's blind support of Bush.
Webb's narrative on people who support the GOP on national security "coming home" is pretty effective, but I've heard it better from him before.
Got distracted praising Warner at the end, instead of getting to his most important (prepared?) closing arguments.
Steve Mancuso
by SPMinOHIO on 10/09/2006 08:48:26 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Hastert (none / 0)

Just say yes. Are you the only person in politics that did not follow this, Jim?

POLLS OUT TODAY say Hastert should resign.

Your biggest voting bloc is a bunch of Northern VA folks who are tuned into this.

Accountablility. Tie it to a record of rubber stamp, unacountable Congress of which Allen is a part.

Not sure I understand the strategy at all.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 10/09/2006 08:45:14 PM EST

Disaster for Webb (none / 0)

Webb was much better in the Meet The Press debate. Of all the Senate debate performances I've seen in the past month, this was, far and away, the worst.

Webb seemed to have no strategy. He did not get across the character issue - one that not only works for him, but also against Allen.

Steve Mancuso

by SPMinOHIO on 10/09/2006 08:52:01 PM EST

: disaster for Webb (none / 0)

Not quite so sure. Allen was good in the 2nd debate but was trite, predictable, without nuance, and predictably partisan in this debate. Another way of saying this is noting new in Allen's content, while there was some newness for Webb. Perhaps that isn't what matters, but Webb went up in my book.
Allan Louden, Wake Forest University

Winston-Salem, NC
by Allan Louden on 10/09/2006 09:00:36 PM EST

[ Parent ]