DebateScoop.org: Liveblogging History: Clinton/Obama

Liveblogging History: Clinton/Obama

By Ross Smith 01/31/2008 07:56:17 PM EST

With a Democrat favored to win the White House in November and just this one debate between the two remaining Democratic hopefuls, a woman and a black man, there arguably may not be a single debate that has had more historic significance.

Kennedy/Nixon may be your quick reply. Yes, in retrospect, that is true. Interesting, too, since Obama has been anointed Kennedy's successor.

Surely this has sunk in for the candidates. Let's hope Wolf Blitzer and CNN treat the event with the dignity and significance it potentially has.

As for the candidates, join me in the comments to see whether they rise to the occasion. For in the end, it is they, two unique and powerful figures, who can prove me right or wrong on my pre-debate take.

Tags: liveblog, debate, debates, elections 2008, democratic presidential primary, California, January

< Hillary vs. Barack: Tonight's Hollywood Feature - "Spoiling for a fight?" | If It's Historic, Who Won? >

Liveblogging History: Clinton/Obama | 68 comments (68 topical, 0 hidden)

The pre-debate talk (none / 0)

Has been ridiculous stuff, games, fights, pandering, etc. I really hope I am right that the candidates will see that it is their one best chance to be presidential.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 08:00:01 PM EST

Wolf already screwing it up (none / 0)

A bit with the "hottest ticket in town" and Oscars reference.

But does go with the "truly historic moment" -- good for him.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 08:02:33 PM EST

The audience is thrilled and Crowley is on it (none / 0)

She notes the historic significance in light of the fact that one of these is most likely to be President of the United States.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 08:04:14 PM EST

Rules (none / 0)

Questions about a wide range of "substantive" issues. Go to politico.com to vote for questions.

No time limits.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 08:05:37 PM EST

hard not to have (none / 0)

a lump in your throat to see these two pairing off.

Steve Mancuso

by SPMinOHIO on 01/31/2008 08:05:38 PM EST

Big coin flip. (none / 0)

Going first gives Obama a big advantage. Can reach out to Edwards and take the high road with Clinton.

by Tim ODonnell on 01/31/2008 08:08:33 PM EST

Opening statements (none / 0)

Obama starts with Edwards tribute (lucky he got to go first). One of us will be the next President. Hillary is my friend. Could not have done better as the lead in to "defining moment" passage from his stump speech, "how do we get past the divisions" etc., "what is at stake" . . . .

Hillary: On January 20, 2009 -- she gets people to imagine the need for competence, a powerful rhetorical approach. Mentioned Elizabeth Edwards, not just John, and had the #'s on poverty. I am a problem solver.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 08:10:49 PM EST

Differences according to Clinton (none / 0)

The power of enthymematic argument - "I believe in universal health care and solving the mortgage crisis." = Obama does not.

by Tim ODonnell on 01/31/2008 08:13:23 PM EST

opening statements (none / 0)

I liked that they got to give opening statements. They each used them to preview their overarching themes.

Steve Mancuso

by SPMinOHIO on 01/31/2008 08:14:12 PM EST

: She more than he (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 01/31/2008 08:16:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Obama was stronger on the differences (none / 0)

a) mortgages (he's actually right about this and its a complex argument made coherently)

b) ethics and influence

c) Iraq

by Tim ODonnell on 01/31/2008 08:18:12 PM EST

Biggest policy distinction? (none / 0)

Hillary: few vs. our differences from Republicans. But . . . Health Care. My plan more like Edwards's. Mortgage crisis moratorium on foreclosures (is that a difference?). Foreign Affairs Realism, no meetings without preconditions.

Obama: Mandates on health insurance unecessary; on mortgage crisis, I do not favor an interest rates freeze because it will hurt those not yet in trouble; reduce influence of lobbyists and special interests in Washington (Edwards); I was opposed to Iraq from the start and judgment about wise use of military power needs to be leavened with diplomacy, both carrots and sticks.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 08:18:29 PM EST

: health care (none / 0)

Obama plays the Ted card and swipes at hidden plan (flashback to her closed door attemps many years ago)
by naterskine on 01/31/2008 08:27:26 PM EST

[ Parent ]

HRC's argument on health care (none / 0)

Shoot the moon and end up with an okay hand? I don't understand why this is a good argument. She admits she won't get it and she'll end up with a plan like her opponents. He needs to use this to say that the all or nothing approach is politics as usual, either or thinking, etc.

by Tim ODonnell on 01/31/2008 08:25:33 PM EST

universal care (none / 0)

Clinton's argument isn't for all or nothing. She says it is important to start shooting higher because of how hard it is to get everything. Obama starts by conceding.

Obama's example in Illinois isn't very compelling. H watered down the bill he was pushing at the behest of medical industry lobbies who were contributing to him at the time (yes, he took money from them back then).

Steve Mancuso

by SPMinOHIO on 01/31/2008 08:29:42 PM EST

[ Parent ]

: Yes, but the answer concedes defeat... (none / 0)

...acknowledges you want get everything.
That's triangulation, compromise, etc. It doesn't square with the moral authority rhetoric she uses.
by Tim ODonnell on 01/31/2008 08:31:26 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Health care (none / 0)

Obama asked about 15 million who would not be covered.

Obama: every expert says everyone who wants it can get it under my plan. I mandate for all children. Cover up to age 25 under parents' plan. Mass. experiment, mandates: fines? garnish wages? Asserts Hillary has not answered that.

Hillary: this is a passionate cause of my public service. My plan lowers costs . . . so is affordable. Must have single-payer, mandate employers, or do my "shared responsibility." Barack just thinks not politically acceptable to have mandates. Will be nibbled to death if opening position is not universal. (GOOD ARG).

Obama: 1) Some of Hillary's subsidies not sufficient; 2) capped premiums not good enough, need to lower premiums; 3) how to get it done (TED KENNEDY says it is WITH ME AS PRES). BROADCAST ON C-SPAN -- TRANSPARENCY.

Clinton questioned on secrecy: SCHIP (how is that relevant?). Three things: 1) regulate the health insurance industry differently, no cherry picking; 2) make it clear to drug companies that they can't be paid too many times, Medicare negotiate prices (Obama not disagree); carry the banner of universal health care.I know, from experience, "HOW TO GET THE POLITICAL PROCESS TO WORK."
ADMITS C-SPAN MAY BE GOOD.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 08:31:00 PM EST

Nice job playing with the metaphor v. McCain (none / 0)

Is that the first time someone's said the straight talk express lost some wheels?

by Tim ODonnell on 01/31/2008 08:32:53 PM EST

HEALTH CARE $$ (none / 0)

Obama, won't GOP call you tax and spend?

Obama: hilarious, "Republicans will not be in a position to argue on deficits . . . " STRAIGHT TALK EXPRESS LOST SOME WHEELS on fiscal discipline.
We do have to talk about who the tax cuts are for and who the tax hikes are imposed on. My plan is paid for.

Wolf asks Hillary, "You want to tax the rich to pay for that?" NASTY, Wolf. HILLARY SHOULD HAVE QUESTIONED HIS FRAMING OF THE QUESTION. She wonks out.Elecronic medical records and Newt Gingrich . . . RAND.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 08:37:04 PM EST

Wolf asks about tax cuts for wealthy again (none / 0)

Barack and Hillary laug at him and say, yes, we're willing to fight that battle.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 08:38:04 PM EST

econ 101 (none / 0)

Obama missed chance to point out that a trillion dollar war, which he voted against, drives up rates which ultimately effects mortgages.
Missed a chance to point ot that he voted against a trillion dollar war which could have paid for universal health care. He should exploit and expand this important difference between them in as many questions as possible

by naterskine on 01/31/2008 08:42:54 PM EST

policy details (none / 0)

One of the ways Clinton wants to distinguish herself is by having a greater command of policy details. So when she wonks out part of what she's doing is showing that these problems are detailed and that she knows about them. Obama is also doing a good job of being specific about his proposals.

Steve Mancuso

by SPMinOHIO on 01/31/2008 08:43:31 PM EST

clinton answered (none / 0)

the question on immigration directly, obama didn't. She also has done a better job so far at using specific narratives and examples from the Super Tuesday states - which has been a pretty consistent advantage for her in debates (except the South Carolina ones).

Steve Mancuso

by SPMinOHIO on 01/31/2008 08:44:59 PM EST

slam (none / 0)

Clinton co-sponsored comprehensive immigration reform before Obama was in the Senate. Oops. Clinton is cleaning up on this. Her history of working for it, making the tough arguments.

Steve Mancuso

by SPMinOHIO on 01/31/2008 08:49:46 PM EST

DL's (none / 0)

Obama opened up the DL subject and Wolf took the bait...she flip flopped

by naterskine on 01/31/2008 08:51:15 PM EST

DL's (none / 0)

Brought it up while struggling in previous question to redirect.

by naterskine on 01/31/2008 08:52:19 PM EST

debate (none / 0)

Best "debate" so far

by naterskine on 01/31/2008 08:53:36 PM EST

Racist Immigration question (none / 0)

Time for them to point out they SHARE MCCAIN'S POSITION.

The question from online suggested Latino immigrants take jobs from blacks.

Obama: no scapegoating. Economic problems rooted in economy out of balance, taxes, lack of investment, ed. funding . . .

Clinton drivers' licences?
She goes back to the original question (NEEDS TO ASSERT HER BONA FIDES ON JOBS AND IMMIGRATION, PANDERS TO BLACKS!!!!!! AND SCAPEGOATS???)
Only do drivers' licences later?? What was her answer?

Obama gets to tout his being early on the immigration issue. "IT'S A HARD POLITICAL ISSUE" and "HAVE TO SHOW LEADERSHIP ON THE ISSUE."

Hillary says she was a co-sponsor before Barack came to the Senate!!! On record for Jesus!!!!!!
FARM WORKERS ENDORSEMENT.

DRIVERS LICENSES: she has vague answer.

Obama says she took a while to get to a clear position. Only bring that up to underscore that it is a difficult political issue. BILL RICHARDSON safety issue.

Hillary: have to correct the record because Obama had trouble answering the questioning, too.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 08:54:22 PM EST

Welcome brother Nat and all (none / 0)

Good point, Nat on the trillion dollars . . .

Hey to Steve, Tim, and everyone.

These two are SO much better than their GOP counterparts were last night and they are really rising to the occasion.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 08:57:10 PM EST

: Couldn't agree more (none / 0)

These two are so far and away better than the clowns on the other side, it's not even close.
Steve Mancuso
by SPMinOHIO on 01/31/2008 08:59:12 PM EST

[ Parent ]

President from Day One (none / 0)

I'm surprised Obama didn't have a stronger answer to the Day One issue. Hillary's answer was a bit rambling and lacked focus. She should spend more time talking about her time in the White House and as a Senator, not the time before that.

Steve Mancuso

by SPMinOHIO on 01/31/2008 09:03:59 PM EST

Experience, Biography (none / 0)

Obama: gets to introduce his biography to many who may not know . . . what is important is to BE PRESIDENTIAL in HOW YOU APPEAR when answering this. "Stuff" is not the best. SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED HIS ENDORSEMENTS FROM KENNDY, LEAHY, VOLKHER, DASCHLE . . .

Hillary: 35 years. Appointed by Pres. Carter. PRIVATE SECTOR??????? WAL MART???? Laundry list is endless. Macedonia. WOMEN in Beijing. CHANGE.

Are Senators underqualified vs businessmen or Congressmen?

Hillary: BEAUTIFUL ANSWER: 1) Gov more than a business, a trust. Second, Bush was a crappy CEO.

Obama: I run a better campaign organization thatn Mitt!!!!!!

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 09:04:16 PM EST

Hilarous (none / 0)

Obama's line on Romney was fantastic!

Steve Mancuso

by SPMinOHIO on 01/31/2008 09:04:19 PM EST

Hillary answer length (none / 0)

If you speak long enough then listener will forget the question asked.

by naterskine on 01/31/2008 09:06:54 PM EST

Endorsements and Kennedys (none / 0)

Hillary: we are both CHANGE. Both have endorsements. DAY ONE experience. VOTERS criteria matter. Humbling.

Obama(answering were the 8 years of Clinton good?): I don't want to diminish that, especially relative to Bush. WE ARE BRINGING IN A WHOLE NEW GENERATION OF VOTERS, calling on the American people to REACH HIGHER. Part of the question is INSPIRE.
SIXTY PERCENT OF NEW VOTERS VOTED FOR ME!!!!

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 09:10:29 PM EST

Great line (none / 0)

Clintons know how to clean up a mess

by naterskine on 01/31/2008 09:12:11 PM EST

Bushes and Clintons forever??? (none / 0)

Tough question but Hilary has good joke about regretting the Bushes. Claims all start equal (what???). Took a Clinton to clean up after the first Bush!!!!!!!!!!

HUGE APPLAUSE AND HILL-ARIOUS.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 09:12:29 PM EST

Clean-up (none / 0)

Good line. Not necessarily entirely responsive to premise of the question, but a good line.

Adrienne F. Brovero Debate Coach University of Mary Washington

by Adri on 01/31/2008 09:12:36 PM EST

: Americans United for Change ad (none / 0)

Placement wound up ideal for Clinton - right after her clean-up line, the commercial break included the ad slamming Bush's legacy/what he's done to the state of the union.
Adrienne F. Brovero Debate Coach University of Mary Washington
by Adri on 01/31/2008 09:16:27 PM EST

[ Parent ]

positive tone (none / 0)

The tone of this debate has been scrupulously positive. Clinton, in particular, has avoided doing anything that could be perceived as even a slight attack, and so, for the most part, has Obama.

Both very charming, witty and intelligent.

Steve Mancuso

by SPMinOHIO on 01/31/2008 09:16:14 PM EST

finally (none / 0)

obama links costs of war to missed opportuities at home.

by naterskine on 01/31/2008 09:20:50 PM EST

Iraq (none / 0)

Who withdraws faster?

Hillary: Important to hedge my bets, but I talks to SecDef and Joint Chiefs . . . civilians, Iraqis who sided with us . . . . tell Iraqi gov they are out of time. Barack and I both try to be responsible.

Wolf: can't make 16 month commitment?

Obama: ACQUAINTS PUBLIC with his "as careful getting out as careless getting in" line. MCCCAIN CONTRAST. Overall links to foreign policy. IMPORTANT TO SET A DATE BECAUSE THAT MOTIVATES THE IRAQIS. then . . . IRAN and transition to point about CONTRAST with McCain as someone who WANTS TO END THE MINDSET that got us into the war.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 09:22:52 PM EST

Wolf? (none / 0)

asking questions is your job. If the candidate answers the question fully, your job is not to characterize the answer for the listener.

by naterskine on 01/31/2008 09:24:02 PM EST

: Wolf sux (none / 0)

but does so slightly less than previous times he has moderated . . . .
Be the debater you want to see.
by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 09:29:03 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Iraq 2 (none / 0)

Hillary: Maxine Waters endorsed me. (Huh?). Need to SEND SEVERAL MESSAGES AT ONCE. (Does not sound good from a meta standpoint, Hillary). I am for opposition to permanent bases.

Follow up to Clinton: Judgment: why not vote for the Levin amendment?????

H: Ron Paul answer: it suggested subordination to U.N. Invokes Byrd (who says she is full of shit if you want to look it up). TRIES TO GO BACK TO GOP DIFFERS ARG, but McCain will say she was for the war but against winning it.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 09:28:18 PM EST

Petraus vs Obama (none / 0)

Obama awesome on feel the pain . . .

LOTS OF NEW SOUND BYTES FROM HIM TONIGHT. BEEEN PRACTICING.

Plus, the format with no time limits really helps him.

EASIER TO ARGUE WHEN YOU CAN SAY IT WAS JUST NOT THE EXECUTION.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 09:31:52 PM EST

Iraq (none / 0)

I wonder what Obama would have said if they had asked him if he would have vote for the Levin amendment?

Maxine Waters is an important of an endorsement in some constituencies as any other. She is also very much in the anti-war community.

Steve Mancuso

by SPMinOHIO on 01/31/2008 09:32:06 PM EST

: I know Maxine (none / 0)

Was just a thin link arg and very much narrow casting.
Be the debater you want to see.
by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 09:33:44 PM EST

[ Parent ]

iF YOU NEW THEN RHETORIC (none / 0)

questioned . . .

She claims "due diligence" -- time to call her out on not having read the NIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 09:32:48 PM EST

Um, I think your exclamation points... (none / 0)

...might be a bit much.

Her answer on the NIE is quite good. She was briefed quite a bit more extensively than just reading one document, including by the people who wrote the NIE.

Steve Mancuso

by SPMinOHIO on 01/31/2008 09:36:13 PM EST

: Not according to Graham and Levin (none / 0)

Be the debater you want to see.
by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 09:41:06 PM EST

[ Parent ]
: People who worte the NIE? (none / 0)

Cheney? or the people who put the caveats in?
Be the debater you want to see.
by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 09:42:18 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Clinton on Iraq (none / 0)

She should focus more on what she would have done if she were President instead of this long winding answer about what she was thinking at the time of her original vote.

Steve Mancuso

by SPMinOHIO on 01/31/2008 09:37:08 PM EST

: Problem with that (none / 0)

was she had to make a tough political decision and caved at the time. She never did more than calculate that.
Be the debater you want to see.
by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 09:40:29 PM EST

[ Parent ]

wolf? (none / 0)

Wolf, There you go again...as one famous republican once said. At least he has hit each candidate once. Zeroes out the wolf factor...still a weak reply on the war vote by hillary. Obama finally playing a strong hand

by naterskine on 01/31/2008 09:37:24 PM EST

Hillary invokes Afghanistan? Gets whacky. (none / 0)

Opening for Obama: he can turn that with Iraq hurt us there: smart and strong better than strong and wrong.

Wolf booed for putting words in Hillary's mouth: were you naive to trust Bush? Good question. Bad form.

Hillary claims Obama and her have similar record.

Obama: I don't want to belabor this (WHY NOT???) wAS TITLED "AUTHORIZATION TO ASE fORCE"

IMPORTANT TO BE RIGHT ON DAY ONE. He got it in!!

FINITE RESOURCES is a good arg.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 09:38:32 PM EST

Break well timed for Obama (none / 0)

Ended with Hillary absorbing foreign policy leadership body blow.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 09:39:13 PM EST

Huh? Sex and violence on TV? (none / 0)

Obama: I am a parent. The industry should show some thought about who they are marketing this stuff to.

Hillary loves this small bore stuff. Lieberman/Clinton? She does not get to answer??

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 09:44:57 PM EST

Garbage time -- spouses (none / 0)

CNN destroys the dignity they had maintained u to now.

HILLARY GUFFAW.

Ridiculous question GREAT ANSWER: I am running for President and this is my campaign.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 09:46:51 PM EST

: Totally disagree. (none / 0)

This is a crucial question, especially in the wake of recent reporting about business dealings.
by Tim ODonnell on 01/31/2008 09:48:29 PM EST

[ Parent ]

HRC on Bill (none / 0)

Back online...

Talks about campaign - doesn't address the premise (if elected...).

by Tim ODonnell on 01/31/2008 09:46:58 PM EST

HRC: Hallmark plug (none / 0)

Shameless.

by Tim ODonnell on 01/31/2008 09:51:18 PM EST

Last question -- Dream ticket?? (none / 0)

Huge applause from crowd.

And it entered my mind, for the first time, seeing these two excellent candidates together tonight.

Obama: takes the chance to talk about his cabinet, and how he would govern, then brings it back to the citizen. WE THE PEOPLE.

SHUT UP, WOLF.

Hillary: agree with everything Barack just said.

HILLARY WEB AD!!!!!!!!!!!! (Hope exclamation amrks justified, Steve).

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/31/2008 09:51:41 PM EST

Smart: take off the mic! (none / 0)

by Tim ODonnell on 01/31/2008 09:51:59 PM EST

: no unforced errors (none / 0)

From either and both were likable. Obama's good judgement (war) vs Hillary's experience (wonkness).
Obama helped himself, I think.

by naterskine on 01/31/2008 10:19:16 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Winners? (none / 0)

If that matters, or such a judgment is even possible from this distinguished group of live bloggers...what do others think?

by Tim ODonnell on 01/31/2008 09:55:59 PM EST

: My take: (none / 0)

Obama showed that he would be ready on day one and that's all he needed to do tonight. It was his best performance to date.
by Tim ODonnell on 01/31/2008 09:59:00 PM EST

[ Parent ]

both winners (none / 0)

Both candidates did very well for the most part.

Obama was more detailed than he usually is. He made a compelling case for his values and the way he would govern. I still don't think he does a very good job of offering tangible proof that it will work. "We need to call on people to cooperate."

Clinton was very personable, which is important for her. She did a good job of setting up the importance of the Day One argument, although she could do better. She thwarted Obama's endorsement surge by making the point that the two of them are the one's running for President. She was weakest on the issue of her past Iraq vote.

Steve Mancuso

by SPMinOHIO on 01/31/2008 10:04:50 PM EST

Liveblogging History: Clinton/Obama | 68 comments (68 topical, 0 hidden)