Edwards, Obama, Richardson, Clinton from left to right.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/05/2008 09:04:18 PM EST

Starts with a video summary of the issue.

Can smuggle, Osama still on the loose, Pakistan turmoil.

Obama will mention Obama/Lugar bill?

Obama "stands by" statement that he would go after Osama Bin Laden if there was actionable intelligence if Pakistan could not or would not do so. Yes, he mentions Lugar/Obama. Lock down the loose nucs. He distinguishes that from the Bush doctrine.

Edwards agrees on that. But then Edwards says put in bigger context: unstable leaders, nucs, etc. Bigger picture is long term . . .  (get to it) . . . AQ Khan . . . ad hoc fails . . . finally, long term . . .  no not quite, ok, now . . . lead a long term initiative to rid the world of nuclear weapons.

Richardson: diplomacy first. Principles and realism. Ask Mushareff to step aside. Yes, if we have actionable intel and Musharef is incapable, then you do take that action.

Clinton: we did try to get Bin Laden when Bill was in charge. Five things. 1) More NATO troops and faster training of Afghan army with more predator drones; 2) any intel must be given very careful vetting and tell Pak gov that the missiles are on the way so they know it was not India; 3) get Mushareff to (with aside correcting her mistake last week about his office) failsafe vague; 5) repair Bush failed policies.

Richardson: remember history with Shah of Iran. Be on the side of Pakistani people, not the dictator.

Obama: Iraq left out of this -- it is a reason we did less in Afghanistan. That was a war of choice. And that fanned anti-American sentiment that makes it harder for us in Pakistan.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/05/2008 09:17:57 PM EST

premise that odds are between 33% and 50%.

I would question the premise.

But the question then is what would wish we had done the day after the attack.

Not sure if this question is answerable.

Edwards answer is not an answer (not that it could or should be) he talks about remain calm, etc.

Obama: I have already been working on this. Rebuild NPT. Work with Russians to reduce our own stockpiles, loose nucs, leadership mindset  . . .

Clinton: reminded it would be an attack from a stateless group . . .  she returns to what we wish we had done and says have a high level person in charge of that. Port security, etc. The stateless terrorist will operate from somewhere. Retaliate against any safe haven. Make it clear there would be massive retaliation.

Richardson: when I was sec. of energy. He asserts the ludicrous: "there has been a prolif of loose nuclear weapons mostly in the hands of terrorists." Needs factcheck.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/05/2008 09:24:40 PM EST

he gotr trashed in the summer for the answer on Bin Laden and Pakistan that everyone now says is right. That was supposedly the big sign of his inexperience, and he was "naive."

But now . . . round one goes to Obama.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/05/2008 09:25:57 PM EST

Asks Hillary what does O bama need to be vetted on?

Hillary says do not make change by calling for it or fighting for it . . .

Says NH voters are indep. (tries to say never mind Iowa). AP says he could debate himself on single payer health care, universsal, and now one that does not cover everyone.

Tries to imply he is unprincipled -- need a President we can rely on.

Obama: I have been entirely consistent -- if design from scratch, would be single payer. But given that half have other now, that is impractical, so . . .
Do have a philosophical difference on mandates.

He moves to social security and says Hillary is the one who is not specific.

Hillary: you have a mandate for children.
Obama: because they do not have a choice.

Hillary: it is not only about health care and you criticized Edwards. You changed on a range of issues: Patriot act, Iraq war funding.
Obama: I never said John was unelectable.

Hillary nasty interrupting.

Obama: mandate for children because they do not have a choice. That is different from saying I would leave out people. Finally, it is important not to distort each others' records as election day approaches.

Edwards: Obama and I have differences. But both of us are powerful voices for change and finished first and second. Then the forces of status quo attack, to say "Obama has a debate with himself . . . " is not right. Wow. goes after Hillary on process. I didn't hear these kinds of attacks when she was ahead.

Hillary: making change is not about a speech you make, it's about working hard. I did SCHIP and Veterans' health care. Getting shrill. We need someone who can deliver, not someone raising the false hopes about what can be delivered.

Richardson: LAUGHTER to "I have been in hostage negotiations that are more civil than this." Let's stay positive. We need change, but whatever happened to experience? Is it a leper?

Edwards: no one cares about hearing politicians fight. But we do have different perspectives on how to fight entrenched interests. If you defend the way the system works,  . . . , you have to be willing to take on entrenched interests.

Obama: part of the change needed is to enlist the American people in self-government, ethics, transperancy in government, folks feel the American dream is slipping away . . . .

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/05/2008 09:40:32 PM EST

Set up is video with premise the surge worked although ya'll opposed it at the start.

Clinton: you said would take a "willful suspension of disbelief" and she says that's right because the purpose was to change the political situation. Without that, 23 Americans dying in December is unjustifiable.

Richardson: the policy is a massive failure. political solutions? none 2) oil revenue, internal forces of security, etc??/ Iran, Syria?

Gibson -- parliament meets, considering an oil law, etc.

Obama: the bar of success has become so low that we lose sight of our national interest. I said at the time we would see a reduction in the violence. But all we are is back to where we were 2 years ago. Need a clear signal we will not be there in perpetuity. Plus a lot of it was the Sunnis who feared we might be leaving. Neglect in Afghanistan . . .

Edwards, if generals said no, don't remove the troops . . .
Edwards: of course you listen but you as Pres are the CINC. Even Bush acknowledges . . . Will not be political progress until we make it clear . . . 40-50 K out in first year . . . I will end combat missions in first year and no permanent bases.

Richardson: you have to get all out to end the war. Even a small force behind prevents international force.

Clinton: we are in vigorous agreement  . . .  consequnces are unpredictable and we need to be ready. What to do with translators, civilians, etc? I demanded planning from Bush.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/05/2008 09:53:06 PM EST

Hillary looked really bad for a while, Richardson doing very well, and Edwards in neutral.

Would have to say Richardson gains some votes from Edwards supporters and Clinton supporters, Obama gets some from Clinton and Edwards supporters.

If it was 35, 30, 20, 10 before, it is closer to 40, 25, 20, 20 now. Not that the debate really functions that way, but . . .

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/05/2008 09:56:15 PM EST

Why you not likeable?

She gets a laugh with "That hurts my feelings." Obama is likable.

Obama says "You're likable enough"

Hillary: Bush was a guy you want to have a beer with, etc. So I am offering 35 years of making change. Look at what we've done. There are differences that need to be aired. First woman president is a huge change.

Obama -- respond to GOP people in first debate?
Obama: was watching some football. Look, any of us represent change from George Bush. But there is a hunger for a different kind of politics. Reducing the power of lobbyists. American people let back into their government.

Obama: we've seen this movie before from the Republicans. There are a number of independents, republicans, who do not have trust. We can build a working majority. Tackle the big issues by building a working majority for change,

Richardson: is prior exec experience necessary and is youth a detriment? R: I did x, y, z, others all mentioned in poll (Obama: did that hurt your feelings? really funny).

Richardson says relative youth is not a detriment.

Edwards on youth and experience. Picture the first day in the white house. I have never taken a dime . . . there will be no corporate lobbyists or lobbyists from foreign governments. My parents and grandparents were workers. This battle is deep inside me and is personal, not academic (Obama?) or political (Hillary).

Edwards: what did you do in your six years in the Senate? First issue was patients' bill of rights. Insert Natalie Sarkesian anecdote.

Obama: to muster enough power we need to bring in the American people.

Hillary: can we have a reality break? There is not a patients bill of rights. Obama's chair in NH is a lobbyist for the drug companies. The 2005 energy bill was larded and Obama voted for it, I did not.  Words are not actions. I have a long record of translating talk into reality. No one here has been the subject of more fire. I worked to . . .

Gibson: I know Clinton and Bush came to Washington talking about change, but Washington is set up to resist change (ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE) then . .

Hillary: gets a chance to defend the Clinton record.

Edwards: it is true that entrenched interests are stealing our children's future. You can't take their money and then fight them. Teddy Roosevelt did not make deals with the monopolies and the trusts.

Obama: It is easy to be cynical, but there have been periods when the American people could be mobilized around big changes. I give Bill Clinton credit, but we never built the majority . .  the truth is words do inspire, don't discount that power. If the American people are disaffected, then it does not happen.

Richardson: this is the Washington bickering that gets nothing done. But John, you need to bring people together, there need to be coalitions and bipartisanship. I will have a cabinet of Republicans, Democrats, and Independents.

Edwards: I will do that, but entrenched moneyed interests cannot be niced to death. I agree we need to unite America. This is not a fight with the American people, it is a fight for the American people.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/05/2008 10:24:13 PM EST

Richardson: Bad idea because you want a target and a mandate. Cap and trade. Carbon tax is put onto consumers. Need light rail, land use . . .

Obama: Cap and trade does make more sense. You need to combine it with a 100% auction -- use the $ to invest in alts. Cost will be passed on in either case. Use some of the money generated to shield low and fixed income people.

Hillary: I think the economy is slipping to recession, unemployment, fall of dollar, oil prices, so use energy as opportunity to jump start recovery. Require utilities . . . weatherization program,

 

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/05/2008 10:28:18 PM EST

Edwards, Bush tax cuts lapse? Hillary interrupts!!!

Question was for Edwards.

Hillary answers again. Duh, they were talking about taxes on the rich.

Hillary just wanted more time?

Edwards finally gets to answer. Uses anecdotes. Trade and tax proposals . . .

Obama: economy has been out of balance since Bush and some globalization preceded him. I propose immediate tax credits and pa for it by closing loopholes. Larger point is that we need a notion of opportunity and bottom up economic growth.

Richardson, what about small business owners?
R: balance the budget. Line item veto for Pres. Corp. welfare. Invest in sci., innovation. Education.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/05/2008 10:34:48 PM EST

Clinton: uses the time to contrast with the GOP and what they talk about in their debates.

Richardson: when I said dead or alive to the favorite S Ct justice and guessed Whizzer White! Really funny.

Edwards: I already was thinking of when I talked about Hillary's jacket.

Obama: Here's an area where I agree with Hillary. There is going to be a fundamental difference between the Democratic nominee and the Republican nominee.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/05/2008 10:38:39 PM EST

Had to see it as an Obama win. Hillary recovered a little bit from the middle to the end, but gthe stories were being written by then.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 01/05/2008 10:39:51 PM EST