. . .scapegoating immigrants, we'll have the debate.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 02/21/2008 07:56:17 PM EST

A "real conversation" with no hard and fast rules.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 02/21/2008 08:05:17 PM EST

Obama won the toss and elected to go second.

Hillary distorts the description of her first political job, calling it voter registration (she worked on campaign for McGovern). Invokes Barabara Jordan,  Ann Richards. Takes credit for SCHIP. She offers a lifetime of experience and proven results. Laundry list included. "Your" campaign (Obama PIC).

Obama says again he is Clinton's friend. Defining moment segment of stump speech. Met a couple in San Antonio on the brink of foreclosure, working woman, Youngstown, OH. NAFTA. Parents of the fallen, war never should have been authorized . . . Laundry list, too,  . . . we both have detailed proposals, what's lacking is not good ideas, Washington has become the place where good ideas go to die. . . . scoring political points vs. bridging differences, be straight with American people, enlist them  . .  Barabara Jordan says people want a country that is as good as its promise.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 02/21/2008 08:13:34 PM EST

for Clinton, would you be willing to sit down with Raul? A: once it demonstrated it really was going to change. Has to be evidence the changes are real first. I believe in no visits without evidence of progress first.

Obama: The starting point should be the liberty of the Cuban people . . . I would meet without pre-conditions, but would prepare an agenda that would have to include human rights. I've called for a loosening of travel and remittances for families.

Called out for 2003 saying normalization.

He says he supports normalization, and our policy has been a failure. "Goal" is how he parses.

He invokes JFK negotiate not ourt of fear, never fear to negotiate.

Hillary: I am strong advocate of diplomacy. JFK would expect a lot of preparatory work. I would use bipartisan diplomacy.

Obama: either of us better than Bush, but it is important precisely because of Bush that the President take a more active role. Meet with Pres. as a privelege that has to be earned reinforces bad image of U.S.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 02/21/2008 08:22:18 PM EST

If not now, when would ever be the time to talk with Cuba? Clinton seems to be taking the stance that stalemate is acceptable as long as they aren't going to call us up first. Obama would pick up the phone first, a humble move by the greater power. Maybe stalemate is the result, but at least he would sieze this unique opportunity for change. Clarifies his general theme of meeting with enemies by stating that agendas would be real. Reinforces the themes of hope vs status quo.
Round to Obama.

by naterskine on 02/21/2008 08:26:42 PM EST

great line by Hillary. "George Bush's war on science"

by naterskine on 02/21/2008 08:30:10 PM EST

Obama: filibuster on the problem, lists some of his policy proposals, TRADE, green economy, etc. We agree, and the Democratic party and other Dem candidates agreed. There is a solid agenda. The Q is how? Only if working coalition for change.

Clinton: agrees with Obama that "it is the Democratic agenda" and notes "the wealthy and well connected have had a President" the last 8 years.
Trade prosecutor. Trade time out. Foreclosure moratorium. Freeze interest rates for 5 years (a ludicrous policy, reminds me of Gerald Ford). End Bush's war on science.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 02/21/2008 08:30:15 PM EST

Hillary: Wrong to deport and leave children behind. Need comprehensive immigration reform. Name check Laredo.

Obama: same, but saw problem was use as political football, need to tone down the ugly rhetoric. Hate crimes. We are a nation of laws and a nation of immigrants and we can reconcile those two things. Important to fix the legal system, too. Fees, etc. discrimination. Improve relationship with Mexico.

Border fence?

Hillary: we both voted for it as a part of immigration debate. Name check Brownsville and Congressman Ortiz -- absurdity of getting part of campus cut off. So, review it. Where it is appropriate -- study plus optimal means.

So, was your vote wrong?

Hillary: tech, smart fencing.

Obama: agree -- reach out to locals. Must deal with this problem of border if want to deal with the 12 million already here. Pass the Dream Act.

Bilingual nation downside?
Hillary: important to learn another language. English the "official" language is wrong -- NY 170 different languages . . .
Obama: bind ourselves together, but every student should learn a second language.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 02/21/2008 08:46:25 PM EST

Agreement on everything.

Steve Mancuso

by SPMinOHIO on 02/21/2008 08:50:28 PM EST

Why, oh why, do dimbrained TV stars get to control the discourse for all of these "debates?" Is there any academic debate format that allows outsiders to completely control the agenda?

by seaver on 02/21/2008 08:52:10 PM EST

John King can stay home. The American Democratic project would survive.

by seaver on 02/21/2008 08:53:27 PM EST

good answer to tough question on the lifted lines.
"some of them are pretty good" referring to his own speeches. very confident in response.

by naterskine on 02/21/2008 09:00:11 PM EST

not what you want to hear when you are making your point.

by naterskine on 02/21/2008 09:01:09 PM EST

This is weak. Wasn't opposing the war a risk?

by seaver on 02/21/2008 09:01:37 PM EST

Q: choice of speeches/solutions, talk/action . . .
all hat no cattle.

Hillary: I have said all hat no cattle about Bush, Obama and I have a lot in common, a relatively positive and civil campaign, how we see the world differently is what we want voters to see, and I want solutions and work for them . . .

Obama: I've acted a lot (list), fundamental differnce is how change comes about. She says "let's get real" as if the people who have been voting for me, the editorial boards, every paper in the state of Texas are being duped! I think they see that clearly that if we don't reduce the special interests and stop the bickering . . . people understand that it is not just policy positions, if we can't inspire people, then we will continue to see the gridlock that causes suffering.

Speech plagiarism?
Obama: 1) two lines in a couple of speeches, Deval is a national co-chair and suggested . . . 2) this is silly season in politics, people want to know how health care? . . . Not just hope and inspiration, genius to toss in policies . . .
Not spending time tearing each other down, should be lifting the country up.

Hillary: if your candidacy is your words, they should be your own
Change you can xerox.
It is not enough to say let's come together. . .
When I proposed health care, I took a risk because . . . you chose to "leave out" and moratorium on foreclosures . . . you said.
Hard work of overcoming entrenched opposition. Some of us have been fighting for a very long time.

Obama: I'm happy to debate the specific issue areas she named. She did health care the wrong way in the 90's because it was behind closed doors.
If we don't change how Washington works . . . `

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 02/21/2008 09:09:10 PM EST

Time constraints shouldn't matter.  They were close to a real debate on health care - in fact the closest we've gotten to a real exploration of the differences - but it was clipped for commercial purposes.

by Tim ODonnell on 02/21/2008 09:10:13 PM EST

Unfortunately, its too complicated for the teevee stars.

by seaver on 02/21/2008 09:14:11 PM EST

by seaver on 02/21/2008 09:15:37 PM EST

You saying he is not ready, Hillary?

Hillary: I want to get back to health care: It is a substantive differnce, not a philosophical one. Without mandates, $900 hidden tax. Will be nibbled to death . . .
Obama: 1) Mandate is to purchase on individuals -- Mass. has a mandate, exempted 20%, some pay fines, and are worse off. to force people you need a harsh penalty.
Hillary: WHEN A MOTHER GRABS MY ARM . . . his has a mandate on parents to cover their children. Social Sec. and Medicare . . .
Obama: that mother can get it under my plan, and children mandate is possible because it is affordable, and children do not have a choice. If it turns out that some are gaming it, we can solve, but it is not true that I am interested in leaving out 15 million

Back to the CINC Q:

Hillary: I did a lot in the foreign policy arena. Think about the unpredictable...

Obama: I would not be running if I did not think I was prepared to be CINC. I will keep the people safe. Need to keep military strong, including proper rotations. It also means using our military wisely, and I showed the judgment on Iraq and believe Sen. Clinton did not.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 02/21/2008 09:21:59 PM EST

aid diverted or could have been more (due to war)
definitely waiting to use that statement for the latino vote

by naterskine on 02/21/2008 09:27:46 PM EST

Hillary: the rationale was the space and time for the Iraqi gov. to make decisions. No more blank check for the Iraqis.

Obama: it's a tactical victory imposed on a strategic blunder. In a debate with McCain it is easier for a candidate who was oppposed to it in the first place . . . Latin America per year is Iraq spending in a week. China moves into the void. Iran is the biggest beneficiary. The burden placed on the American people, PSTD, and spend $12B a monthe there, no health care $ and infrastructure $.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 02/21/2008 09:28:23 PM EST

If she needed a big hit tonight, it doesn't look like it will happen. Of course, the format prohibits  "clash." She went on the offense about plagiarism and "words" but I just do not see how that seems anything other then desperate.

The real debate that broke out on health care for four minutes was great. I saw it as a virtual tie.

by seaver on 02/21/2008 09:31:50 PM EST

Obama: no, I disclosed all. I passed a bill "Google for government" Some are "worthy projects" in our states.

Hillary: McCain supported wasteful tax cuts and the Iraq war (no mention that she did, too).

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 02/21/2008 09:34:43 PM EST

She insisted on getting back to health care debate, but she is dropping the war vote like the hot potato it is.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 02/21/2008 09:35:58 PM EST

this is not a reason to prefer a candidate.

I hate the horse race questions.

Obama uses the opportunity to go back into his stump speech, Washington outsider.

Democratic party at its best . . .

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 02/21/2008 09:38:08 PM EST

Not literally, but wow. You can see it.

by seaver on 02/21/2008 09:43:24 PM EST

I lived across the street from it. Another reason to have voted no to a needless war. Still a good answer due to her personal history. You have to feel some sympathy for her with what she has been through in the public eye, even if she signed up for it. She seemed tired at the end.

by naterskine on 02/21/2008 09:45:50 PM EST

Obama: the trajectory of my life . . . was most important when I learned to take responsibility, community, (I have no crises)

Hillary: Everybody here knows {Bill was a cheating SOB] -- very humanizing answer. Name check San Antonio, tear jerker story, not quite tears, very good.

I am honored to be here with Barakc Obama -- we're going to be fine. I just hope we'll be able to say the same thing about the American.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 02/21/2008 09:52:56 PM EST

Ends with thoughts of dream ticket, Obama at top of the ticket.

Be the debater you want to see.

by Ross Smith on 02/21/2008 09:53:45 PM EST

 none. the delegate numbers show it is over, so this debate had very little riding on it.

by naterskine on 02/21/2008 09:57:12 PM EST